Author Topic: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"  (Read 15809 times)

StR

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2016, 01:10:02 am »
And then Thunderbird has no conversations / threading (I mean built-in, believe there is a plugin), so I don't know how it handles other interesting Gmail specific cases.

Threads have been in the base version for many years.
View-> Sort by -> Threaded

(I am talking about Desktop (Windows) version... not sure if there is a mobile one.)

Kostya Vasilyev

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2016, 01:11:16 am »
Re: and more about the back-end:

$ ls -lh \[Gmail\].sbd
-rw-------. 1 kman kman  41M May 10 00:55 All Mail
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 348K May 10 01:04 All Mail.msf
-rw-------. 1 kman kman    0 Feb 18 20:43 Drafts
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 2.2K Apr 25 01:02 Drafts.msf
-rw-------. 1 kman kman  32M May  8 17:11 Important
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 224K May 10 01:03 Important.msf
-rw-------. 1 kman kman  11M Mar  7 21:19 Sent Mail
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman  51K Apr 25 01:02 Sent Mail.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.3K Jun 24  2015 Spam.msf
-rw-------. 1 kman kman    0 Feb 18 20:43 Starred
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.8K Apr 25 01:02 Starred.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.3K Jun 24  2015 Trash.msf

$ls -lh
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.3K Jun 24  2015 Archives.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.2K Jun 24  2015 Drafts.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.6K Jun 24  2015 [Gmail].msf
drwx------. 2 kman kman 4.0K Feb 18 20:43 [Gmail].sbd
-rw-------. 1 kman kman 1.6M May 10 00:55 INBOX
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman  67K May 10 01:04 INBOX.msf
-rw-r--r--. 1 kman kman   25 Jun 24  2015 msgFilterRules.dat
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.2K Jun 24  2015 Sent.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.3K Jun 24  2015 Templates.msf
-rw-------. 1 kman kman  14K Jun 25  2015 testlabel
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 3.2K Apr 25 01:02 testlabel.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.8K May 10 00:57 Trash.msf


My INBOX really does have only a few dozen messages.

More messages in All Mail and a lot of those are also Important. The sizes of database files (for [Gmail]/All Mail and [Gmail]/Important) are pretty close.

So yes, it does *store* duplicates it looks like.


I guess the only thing this tells us is -- support for Gmail labels has to exist as a "very special" (VS? VSOP?) feature in a mail app.

The way Gmail maps its "labels" to IMAP is maybe "the best it can be", but without the mail app having Gmail specific code, there are all kinds of "strange" things.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 01:19:21 am by Kostya Vasilyev, Aqua Mail »
Creating debug logs for diagnostics: https://www.aqua-mail.com/troubleshooting/

The official FAQ: https://www.aqua-mail.com/faq/

Лог-файлы для диагностики: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/troubleshooting/

Вопросы и ответы: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/faq/

Kostya Vasilyev

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2016, 01:18:19 am »
Quote
Threads have been in the base version for many years.
View-> Sort by -> Threaded

D-OH! I must have been thinking of something else, thanks!

But I don't think it can show sent + received in same view (no "access folders"), and so no duplicates.

Sorry for the digression.
Creating debug logs for diagnostics: https://www.aqua-mail.com/troubleshooting/

The official FAQ: https://www.aqua-mail.com/faq/

Лог-файлы для диагностики: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/troubleshooting/

Вопросы и ответы: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/faq/

StR

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2016, 01:19:20 am »
Here is what I was referring to:
Quote
Note that a message can have multiple labels (for instance, "Personal", "Travel", "All Mail" and "Starred"). In this case, a single copy of this message will be downloaded, but it will be displayed in all the corresponding Thunderbird folders.
Source: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/thunderbird-and-gmail#w_understanding-gmail-labels-and-thunderbird-folders

Sorry, I have no idea what happens on the backend in Thunderbird.

PS.
I agree with:
Quote
... without the mail app having Gmail specific code, there are all kinds of "strange" things.

On the same Thunderbird page, there is a hint that there is some Gmail-specific code that handles Gmail accounts. And you already have Gmail- (and now Hotmail-) specific code for OAUTH2...
Or, maybe you meant Gmail-specific code in relation to the connection (as opposed to IMAP)?


PS.
Quote
I guess the only thing this tells us is -- support for Gmail labels has to exist as a "very special" (VS? VSOP?) feature in a mail app.
XO-XO-XO!
;D
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 01:27:18 am by StR »

Kostya Vasilyev

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2016, 01:28:56 am »
Re: Here is what I was referring to

The sizes of the database files are pretty indicative that it *stores* copies (per-folder).

Maybe it *downloads* such messages once.

Also the test with marking a message as unread tells me that it's not able to apply user-initiated flags changes to "the real Gmail message of which there is but one, no matter how many labels".

But then again, Thunderbird is only an example of an app that's not aware of Gmail labels to the extent where it would "feel like real Gmail".

Re: And you already have Gmail- (and now Hotmail-) specific code for OAUTH2

OAUTH2 is authentication (login), completely unrelated to Gmail labels.

Re: maybe you meant Gmail-specific code in relation to the connection

In the context of this discussion, about Gmail labels, I meant "special code that is aware of Gmail labels".

« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 01:42:44 am by Kostya Vasilyev, Aqua Mail »
Creating debug logs for diagnostics: https://www.aqua-mail.com/troubleshooting/

The official FAQ: https://www.aqua-mail.com/faq/

Лог-файлы для диагностики: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/troubleshooting/

Вопросы и ответы: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/faq/

Davey126

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2016, 02:27:52 am »
@StR:

re: As Kostya pointed out you are responding to something completely different from my point(s).
re: Unless you intentionally delete or archive a message in your server-side filters, how could it happen that a message would "loose all labels, including "inbox" "?

Actually, Kostya asked a specific question which I responded to and and ultimately we reached a common understanding on the particular scenario that I was describing (human action).

re: "Archived" means something that you do not access on everyday basis. You do that once in a while, and then you don't necessarily expect it to have all the same behavior.

That is an opinion and one that is likely shared by some and disputed by others. I have been using Gmail before most knew it existed (because it was free and I'm cheap) and actively participated in forums during its early development. Google wanted users to retain everything and didn't even offer a delete function in early builds. Archiving was encouraged as an inbox management mechanism.

re: All other messages live either in their respective folders (labels), where they get sorted either automatically or moved by hand, or in Inbox, if they do not belong to any major topic. Sent messages live in either "Sent" or in the specific folder where they got moved to.

I addressed this as well. 90-95% of my mail is neatly filed away in 'folders'. Hundreds of messages are not, either by choice, oversight or omission. There is no need to hunt down these messages as they can be instantly found (and often relabeled) with a search. As you may or may not know individual messages within a conversation can be unlabeled and do not stand out unless 'missing' from a folder in a non-gmail client. Yet another reason why visibility to All Mail is important.

re: From what I can tell, not actively using "All Mail" folder/label is a very frequent model of Gmail, at least by people who use Gmail via IMAP client (e.g. Thunderbird).

Yes, because unless the client offers sync intelligence the All Mail folder can take up a significant amount of local storage.

re:  I don't go to "All Mail" even the web-interface, or in Gmail app that I am using for one of my Gmail accounts.

I'll refer back to a previous response: In a perfect world with perfect labeling and a perfect mechanism to detect the actions of imperfect humans there would be no need for "All mail". I don't live in that world.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 02:55:22 am by Davey126 »

StR

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2016, 06:53:17 am »
I am less appreciative of subjective schooling suggesting that poor habits or a change in behavior is the real answer. We all can learn something from each other and I appreciate constructive dialog ...

Golden words!
The dialog could be more constructive and you would have fewer reasons to be upset if you would consider suggestions from others as such (i.e. suggestions), rather then "schooling".
I thought I was very explicit in saying that what I wrote are my views, and I am not forcing them on you, only sharing them with you, but maybe it wasn't clear enough:
Obviously, our workflows are different. But it looks like you are considering making some changes to your established procedures (you've asked about abandoning "Sent"). In that case, - you might want to consider and read the view that I have on these folders.

-----

There is no single right way of setting an e-mail workflow (except Kostya's;  Right, Kostya?  ;) ).
Yours has problems with the app. You can keep talking about those same problems, every time proposing changes to Aquamail, and it might eventually have an effect: "Dripping water hollows out stone, not through force but through persistence." (Publius Ovidius Naso aka Ovid). ... or might not. And that's fine. I've never said a word against that.  (And I might benefit from some of those changes as well.)

But when you seemingly looked into possible changes in your workflow, I offered you my suggestion(s). If it is not for you (for whatever reason), - that's fine. But there is no need to keep arguing that everything I wrote is wrong and on top of that ranting about that.

Well, I am willing to write it all off, blaming it on the inclement weather around you, a bad day that you had, or even on my [hand]writing not being perfectly clear (even though I could understand it well even before I've written it! 8) ).



Davey126

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2016, 07:17:05 am »
re: "Dripping water hollows out stone, not through force but through persistence."

Well - if I look in the mirror that seems a pretty accurate representation. Well read, @StR. I would not want to engage you in a chess match! 8)

Yes, it has been a bad day (for many reasons) and I have invested too heavily in these forums the past few weeks pushing for the last 2% in a tool that satisfies my needs (and presumably those of a much larger community) 98% of the time. So it is probably time to step away before I dig any more holes. Not backing away from the principal arguments mind you but the presentation could have been better.

Sorry, gents.

Zduke

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2016, 09:37:43 am »
It seems that grouping of subject "ES [1] EventSentry::12105 by Email Critical Events" with the same sender is not working.

Cheers

Zduke

Kostya Vasilyev

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2016, 09:53:11 pm »
Re: ES [1] EventSentry::12105 by Email Critical Events

Is the "ES [1]" here a reply prefix (in some non-English language)? Similar to "Re", "Fwd"?

If so -- this reply prefix is pretty non-standard. The app removes prefixes that look like:

"Re:", "Fwd:", "Re[2]:", "Fwd[31]:" and so on, any 2-3 character prefix.

But a semicolon (":") is required, and there is not supposed to be a space before the opening square bracket. This is pretty standard, I believe.
Creating debug logs for diagnostics: https://www.aqua-mail.com/troubleshooting/

The official FAQ: https://www.aqua-mail.com/faq/

Лог-файлы для диагностики: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/troubleshooting/

Вопросы и ответы: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/faq/

Zduke

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2016, 05:44:20 pm »
Re: ES [1] EventSentry::12105 by Email Critical Events

Is the "ES [1]" here a reply prefix (in some non-English language)? Similar to "Re", "Fwd"?

If so -- this reply prefix is pretty non-standard. The app removes prefixes that look like:

"Re:", "Fwd:", "Re[2]:", "Fwd[31]:" and so on, any 2-3 character prefix.

But a semicolon (":") is required, and there is not supposed to be a space before the opening square bracket. This is pretty standard, I believe.


No, its not a prefix. Its just a subject generated by Eventsenty. Eventsentry ships me some interesting Windows logs and
I am not sure how it compose subject and why it is using that format.
Ive noticed that Win10 builtin mail client correctly groups that subject while Aquamail not.

Cheers

Zduke



StR

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2016, 05:58:46 pm »
It seems that grouping of subject "ES [1] EventSentry::12105 by Email Critical Events" with the same sender is not working.

Let me ask you, just in case: In the messages that you expect to be grouped, - are the numbers exactly the same? I.e., all the messages have "[1]", and "12105" ?
I am asking, because based on your explanation of what these messages are, I'd naively expect that those numbers would be changing...

Kostya Vasilyev

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2016, 11:03:24 pm »
Re: No, its not a prefix. Its just a subject generated by Eventsenty.

Then we have different subjects and such messages will not be grouped.

Re: Win10 builtin mail client correctly groups that subject

I think the "correct" here may very well be debatable. As I understand, those messages are not replies to each other?
Creating debug logs for diagnostics: https://www.aqua-mail.com/troubleshooting/

The official FAQ: https://www.aqua-mail.com/faq/

Лог-файлы для диагностики: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/troubleshooting/

Вопросы и ответы: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/faq/

Zduke

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2016, 12:33:17 am »
Re: No, its not a prefix. Its just a subject generated by Eventsenty.

Then we have different subjects and such messages will not be grouped.

Re: Win10 builtin mail client correctly groups that subject

I think the "correct" here may very well be debatable. As I understand, those messages are not replies to each other?


Nope, those are not replies.
I understand that Aquamail is trying to capture some predefined patterns and group messages accordingly, but if I there is an option to group messages with the same subject and sender, and  I have messages in my inbox that satisfy that criteria, I would expect them to be grouped even if they have some square brackets in subject line :)


Kostya Vasilyev

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Re: Version 1.6.2-dev5.7 - "work in progress", Google Play "beta"
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2016, 12:35:33 am »
Re: I have messages in my inbox that satisfy that criteria

Do they satisfy the criteria?

Are the numbers exactly the same, and all the rest, are the subjects exactly the same?

What StR asked above (indirectly)?
Creating debug logs for diagnostics: https://www.aqua-mail.com/troubleshooting/

The official FAQ: https://www.aqua-mail.com/faq/

Лог-файлы для диагностики: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/troubleshooting/

Вопросы и ответы: https://www.aqua-mail.com/ru/faq/