Version 1.6.2-dev1.3 - "work in progress" (updated again)

[Kostya Vasilyev]

Re: Not sure what apps/clients you are using but I do not see ubiquitous Undo toasts popping up on every action in my broad portfolio

Gmail is one. Pretty popular I hear.

Also in recent Android versions the preinstalled SMS app (and maybe others) uses Undo.

Re: floating action button disappearing

I just made a change to auto-commit after 5 seconds.

Re: menu item to "undo last action"

Very important: discovery and reassurance.

Undo is something you'll want after an "oh shit!" moment, and if the user at this point has to search the menus (how do you let them know this?), well, that's bad.

And then without a menu item, even if the user did not make a mistake:

"Oh, the app deleted my message and didn't even ask to confirm!!!"

The panel, on the other hand, introduces the feature, and shows exactly how it works:

"OK, so I clicked delete, and the message disappeared, right, but -- oh look -- I could press here and bring it back, good".

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One other thing: the panel needs to be accessible through transitions from message view to message list (after a delete), the screen layout there is different (icon bar along the bottom vs. none, usually), so again the current positioning works for that.

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Finally (please don't take it as a personal attack, veiled or direct) -- really, if you don't like this new feature, consider turning it off.

It's perfectly fine, just like some people use the dark theme (or the old style light theme), some people turn off the floating action button, some people don't use push mail or the app's widgets (that's me here), etc.

[Davey126]

re: Gmail is one. Pretty popular I hear.

Gmail's toast is not persistent; it disappears after a few sec. It's also smaller, fades in smoothly and is thus less distracting (at least to me). Same trend in the other apps you mention.

re: really, if you don't like this new feature, consider turning it off

Absolutely! I use AquaMail for many reasons including it's tremendous flexibility. That said, the development cycle seems the best time to comment on newly introduced features in an effort to make them better. Once implemented I am much less likely to comment on aesthetic issues as they become part of the products UX. Hopefully my post history demonstrates I am willing to disable features I don't care for and accommodate nuances in the way AquaMail operates without complaint. I do not view suggestions as 'complaints' and (to my knowledge) never took a jab at anyone who disagreed with my position. Quite the opposite in fact, acknowledging constructive dialog leads to better outcomes even if not what I personally desired.

re: please don't take it as a personal attack, veiled or direct

Addressed above (and in response to another post).

re: I just made a change to auto-commit after 5 seconds
re: Very important: discovery and reassurance

Thank you - both for change and extended explanation. Perhaps the latter was obvious to everyone but me. I tend to think not. Flushing out rational is helpful to current and future readers - even if a bit annoying to those who already see the light.

[Kostya Vasilyev]

Re: Gmail's toast is not persistent; it disappears after a few sec.

And Aqua's undo panel will disappear and commit after 5 seconds too. Done, just not posted.

Re: It's also smaller, fades in smoothly and is thus less distracting (at least to me).

Smaller:

Yes, I used a larger size than prescribed by the design guides. May change. Unsure, though.

Less distracting:

I've not seen any app with 1) undo panel and 2) icon bar along the bottom (Aqua's message view) 3) "floating context bar" (the vertical strip of message action icons which is present in message lists).

Fades in smoothly:

Um, are you saying Aqua's undo panel seems jumpy / jittery / whatever for you?

Or are you talking about how it "flips" from one action to the next (if not dismissed yet)?

I thought it would a cool animation, to draw the user's attention to how "1 message deleted" now refers to the just deleted message, not the one he'd deleted just before that. A visual change to draw attention to the data change.

[Davey126]

re: And Aqua's undo panel will disappear and commit after 5 seconds too. Done, just not posted.
Thank you!

re: Yes, I used a larger size than prescribed by the design guides. May change. Unsure, though.
Obviously your call - see below for related commentary

re: Less distracting:
re: I've not seen any app with 1) undo panel and 2) icon bar along the bottom (Aqua's message view) 3) "floating context bar" (the vertical strip of message action icons which is present in message lists).

Not sure what to make of this as I wasn't commenting other UI elements. Suppose I could:
- floating context bar: Brilliant! Appears immediately after message selection selection with a list of actions I can take on the selected items. I use this feature daily and love it.
- icon bar in message view: also used regularly, customized with the buttons I use most frequently. Also like that I can toggle top/bottom bars as needed with simple button. Well done.
None of that adds/detracts to comments on the undo toast (unless I'm missing something). How are they linked?

Fades in smoothly:

Um, are you saying Aqua's undo panel seems jumpy / jittery / whatever for you?

Or are you talking about how it "flips" from one action to the next (if not dismissed yet)?

I thought it would a cool animation, to draw the user's attention to how "1 message deleted" now refers to the just deleted message, not the one he'd deleted just before that. A visual change to draw attention to the data change.

Gmail's undo notification appears 'gently' after a brief delay. It is not as jarring as AquaMails which is amplified by the large size and the color flash when deleting a message. Lots of screen bling following a simple swipe action. Once the novelty wears off I really do not need attention drawn to the undo function as 95% of the time I am not looking to undo the previous action. A subtle toast, floating button, whatever would be better IMHO. After all, the action being performed can (in most cases) still be reversed by other means. We're not talking "format c:" here.

Attempt at humor: The current presentation of undo reminds me of some commerce sites that throw up a pop-up when you try to exit. "But wait ... don't you REALLY want to undo?" 

[Kostya Vasilyev]

Re: None of that adds/detracts to comments on the undo toast (unless I'm missing something). How are they linked?

The relative positioning of UI elements.

The undo bar is bottom-aligned with the FAB (they're not on the screen at the same time, but I thought it would look nice).

The Floating Context Bar gets bumped up (try selecting a message, deleting, and while the undo bar is still visible, select another message... then click Undo).

In message view mode (let's say you deleted a message and the app is set to "navigate to previous message after delete"), the undo bar has to be *above* the icon bar, so you can click Reply or whatever immediately, without having to wait.

Then it's possible to turn the FAB off, and then you'll have an icon bar along the bottom in message lists too.

Re: Gmail's undo notification appears 'gently' after a brief delay

After a delay? Um, interesting. Wonder if there is a technical reason for it (say, too much repaint causing the frame rate to drop).

Re: color flash when deleting a message

If you mean the colors (red / yellow / green)  "splashing over" the message being affected -- Gmail does it too.

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But yes, I see what you're saying.

Maybe the panel needs to be semi-transparent, maybe the animation should be delayed, maybe maybe maybe.

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Re: "But wait ... don't you REALLY want to undo?"

Darn, you blew my cover.

Yes, a secret deal with Google, a plot to keep people from deleting their mail (so that Google can read it).

( and psst, don't even mention the NSA )



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Let's take a step back though.

We're by now discussing the subtleties of visuals.

BUT

Does the darn thing work at all??

[Davey126]

Although I didn't run the various scenarios I could easily visualize the various element placements from your descriptions and appreciate the thoughtful effort put in to make sure everything plays nicely together. We have all seen apps that stumble along like a teenager who appendages (keep it clean...) have outgrown their torso. I have yet to experience that type of behavior in AquaMail...ever...even in betas. A testament to the high bar you set for yourself and others.

re: Does the darn thing work at all?
Yes - it does! There are no operational deficiencies that I have detected to date. The discussion surrounds visuals, with the possible exception of the FAB being obscured by the Undo toast on message lists. If the undo toast does become more discrete (designers call) then there should be room for both, although the toast would need to be somewhat left aligned if the FAB is present. Or maybe this will work better with the 5 sec timeout; look forward to checking it out in the next beta.

re: Gmail does it too ...
In both cases referenced Gmail's implementation is less jarring. I'm not trying to be critical or say you have done something wrong. Perhaps they have special access to buttery animations that the average dev does not. But wait...you're not 'average'

Also interesting how the Gmail app handles Undo on swipes versus message select->act. The UI is inconsistent in this regard - but also places Undo in a more obvious location post swipe. Not sure I like this implementation but thought I'd point it out if you haven't observed directly. The default swipe action is 'archive' but you can change it in settings to 'delete'.

NB: If you want to see a fine example of poor UI design note where the settings option is buried in the Gmail app. If you have more than a handful of folders it falls into an off-screen abyss. Oi!

[Kostya Vasilyev]

Re: In both cases referenced Gmail's implementation is less jarring.

I'll take a look again.

Don't think they "have access to more buttery animations" -- actually I think it's possible that they had to cheat (spread the animations over time)...

Re: Undo on swipes versus message select->act

Yes, I'm aware of this, and not sure I like the inconsistency.

Re: room for both, although the toast would need to be somewhat left aligned if the FAB is present

Hmm. An interesting idea. Wonder how it'd work with German (and other languages more verbose than English, including Russian).

[Davey126]

re: Wonder how it'd work with German (and other languages more verbose than English, including Russian).

Being an "ugly American" I sometimes forget the nuances of other languages/regions. My apologies! I try not to be that way; for years I used military time suffixed with time zone in written communications (my team was multi-national), but people got all over my case for being too "culturally sensitive". Just use 'local time' and let them translate. What the hell does that mean?? It really is amazing how insensitive some Westerners can be.

[Kostya Vasilyev]

LOL, but just factually (the epithets aside), "Undo" is shorter than "Отмена" (Russian), "Rückgängig" (German) or "Annulation" (French).

[mikeone]

I will give you a comparison between English and German (just as an example):

<xx>messages moved to Deleted / <Undo>
<xx>Nachrichten in Gelōscht verschoben / <Rückgängig>

Therefore I understand Kostya's concerns about the needed space for other languages.

[Davey126]

I vote for Arabic as it uses the least real estate beating out English, German and French. That said, Mandarin Chinese probably tops them all with just a symbol or two for en entire phrase!

Kidding aside, the dialog clearly must be wide enough to accommodate most, if not all, languages without excessive compression or conditional reduction in font size.

[StR]

I've been thinking about the structure and etymology of the word "undo" and its equivalents in other languages. (Etymology and comparative etymology in different languages is something that I've been enjoying for many years.)
 The equivalents of undo in many European languages (Russian, German,  French) do not seem to be not a literal translation.

In English "undo" is the reverse action of "do", i.e. reversal of the action.

In Russian, "Отмена/отменить" and in French, "Annulation/annuler" are essentially "cancel(ation)" [of an action or a process].

It might seem that in German it is similar to "undo" if the full expression is used: "Rückgängig machen", as "machen" means to do, to make and "rückgängig" is something like back [from] current. However, if I understand German correctly, - it is not "back from what is done" but "make going back from current" (i.e. reversing the state, not the action, as in English).

In Spanish, "deshacer" is the negation (des) of "hacer" (= do, make), so this almost the same as "undo".

PS. I would also argue that "откат" is probably a more correct (literal) match to "undo" (albeit arguably more of a slang), even though Google uses "отмена". Compare, e.g.
https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1284885?hl=ru
https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1284885?hl=en
or
https://support.google.com/snapseed/answer/6181627?hl=ru
https://support.google.com/snapseed/answer/6181627?hl=en

PPS. Paris Geek: I cannot read Arabic or for that matter any language within the Afroasiatic (Hamito-Semitic) family. My understanding of etymology is limited to the "Euro" branches of "Indo-European" family, and a bit of "Turkic" family as it influenced European languages.
I would be curious if you can describe how that word is formed in Arabic.

Kostya: my apology for the digression.

[Kostya Vasilyev]

Re: I would also argue that "откат" is probably a more correct

This literally means "rollback", not "cancel" (the verb is от-катить, back-roll).

Appropriate when discussing databases (where it's the exact right term) or e.g. "let's roll back those web site changes", "those code changes" etc...

However, the more universally understood meaning of "откат" in modern Russian has nothing to do with technology: it's "kickback" (in the financial sense).