AquaMail Forum
English - Android => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kostya Vasilyev on November 02, 2016, 05:32:30 pm
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MobiSystems (https://www.mobisystems.com/) is proud to announce that Aqua Mail is joining its family of productivity and business apps.
Please see the full announcement (https://www.mobisystems.com/news/aqua-mail-becomes-a-part-of-the-mobisystems-family-159/) for details.
I (Kostya Vasilyev) will remain involved in the project.
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so you won't be the sole developer?
Hmmm, I think that's good,
I don't mean that you're not the best though,
but some help would not be bad
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Does this change in any way the existing privacy policy?
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Re: Does this change in any way the existing privacy policy?
There have not been any changes, and there have not been any new updates to the app, so there is no way it could be doing something different already.
Going forward, I expect that if something changed, then Mobisystems would update the policy as well.
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We should congratulate? :) So we do.
But as being a user, I don't know, if it will better or worse for users.
What does it mean to the users? Privacy, terms of use, support?
What about further development of the app? "remain involved" sounds like Kostya only being a small part of the whole thing?
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Thanks Kostya. I think many people will be hoping the privacy policy remains unchanged with MobiSystems.
There's an email privacy thread on AndroidForums (also linked to from XDA) which many people have used to base their decision to come to AquaMail. See the thread here: androidforums.com/threads/email-which-apps-keep-it-private.935578/
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I can't go into details on the agreement or "small" (or not) "part", but --
-- I'm planning to continue to read and respond on the forum at least for the foreseeable future
-- There have not been any changes to the privacy policy or terms of use (which there was none, actually)
-- There have not been been any updates to the app or even development builds, yet
In terms of "is everything lost now?" :)
-- I could have gotten hit by a car (it's good that I haven't) or I could have died from some illness, at any point during the last few years, and then that would have made everything stop completely and irreversibly.
So whatever way you look at this news about MobiSystems, it couldn't be nearly as bad by comparison :)
@Jeff
Yes, I've seen that before, but thanks for the reminder.
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So whatever way you look at this news about MobiSystems, it couldn't be nearly as bad by comparison :)
Ok. By this comparison ;).
Thanks btw for not selling the app to Cheetah Mobile... :) :)
But It sounds like you will not decide about further development?
In short: I trust you (don't ask why ;)), but can we trust Mobisystems?
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Thanks btw for not selling the app to Cheetah Mobile... :) :)
Funniest thing I've read all day. And, so true.
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OK, so "Cheetah Mobile" == same as == "Kostya getting hit by a car" :)
I won't comment on the exact nature of the arrangements, but do the details really matter?
What's happened is this:
AquaMail was a project run by an "indie" developer doing everything (literally everything) on his own, for years.
And lately it has not been going well for me:
- Too much time on email support, answering same questions over and over and over again
- Tired of going to bed at or after 2am every day
- Too little time and energy left to implement new features, wanted by users and present in other apps
- And other things...
Now I'm not "all by myself" anymore, so I hope that these things get better, and that the app improves too.
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Congratulations, Kostya!
I hope you did well on the deal, as you deserved it!
With your new role (and obligations) most likely, it won't be as much fun.
I appreciate the time I spent in this community with you, and the things I've learned.
... "and Thanks for All the Fish!"
:)
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Hi, a question:
I'm running regular AquaMail 1.6.2.9 from Google Play Store.
What will happen to the dev-builds 1.6.4.x?
Will we see them released in Play Store or not?
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https://www.mobisystems.com/aqua-mail/ (https://www.mobisystems.com/aqua-mail/)
I expect longtime AM users are happy that Kostya has been able to receive compensation for his development work and support of his application. I only found AM a few months ago but really like it and hope that development will carry on pretty much the same way it has in the past. Only time will tell.
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Hi,
Ouch... i have seen these things before. Many (but not all) went wrong. Like completely ruining a perfect app. Let's not even talk about apps like Quicpic. I hope for the best. A practical question though: i'm running the last dev build. Will those continu also? Or do i need to install from Play to get updates?
congrats with the deal though!!!
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Hi, a question:
I'm running regular AquaMail 1.6.2.9 from Google Play Store.
What will happen to the dev-builds 1.6.4.x?
Will we see them released in Play Store or not?
The -dev builds on the forum will continue. We just need to work out a few things here first, please excuse the delays.
Same with Play betas.
It will be possible to update "in place", same as before.
And then, I'll be here on the forum too, same as before, at least for the foreseeable future.
I really appreciate the forum, good discussions, it also serves as a "knowledge base" with search, and so my plan is to continue to participate.
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Thank you, Kostya
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Congratulations, Kostya!
I hope you did well on the deal, as you deserved it!
+1
I too am glad for Kostya.
Well deserved.
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Congratulations kotsya. This was inevitable and I was expecting this to happen at any time. Particularly with current business eco system and your frequent absence here. I sincerely hope you got what is deserved for this very nice application. I know Mobisys from symbian days, and they generally offer price their products. Hope existing user of aqua do not get hit by their too much premium pricing policy. Congratulations once again.
Sent from my LG-H818 using Tapatalk
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Congrats.
Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk
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Thank you guys for your support. We'll try not to let you down.
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Hi everyone,
This is Nadia from MobiSystems and I will be helping Kostya with the support :)
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Hi everyone,
This is Nadia from MobiSystems and I will be helping Kostya with the support :)
Hi Nadejda,
It's great to have you here in the forum.
You are very welcome to join this active community 8)
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Hello, Nadia, welcome. Hope to see you making this fine app even better :)
Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk
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Hello Nadie, welcome.
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Welcome, Nadia!
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Speaking of privacy:
MobiSystems has updated the Privacy Policy on the Aqua Mail web site:
http://www.aqua-mail.com/?page_id=1878
Overall it's the standard corporate policy, linked on MobiSystems web site.
But the old technical explanation is still there, because -- tada! -- it's still valid.
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I congratulate!
I use AquaMail for years now, it has been my favourite.
Switched from Profimail and K9, never looked back.
And funny, I've been also a user of almost all the other apps from Mobisystems, being
a happy user of FileCommander, Office etc. These apps were preinstalled on Sony smartphones in the past.
So, great achievement! I just hope MobiSystems will continue - with you! - great development of a great app.
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Congrats to you and the team. Hard work paid off. Does it mean you're moving to San Diego? Only issue it's hot 80F all year round. ;)
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Congrats to you and the team. Hard work paid off. Does it mean you're moving to San Diego? Only issue it's hot 80F all year round. ;)
I would disagree with the last statement.
First, it is not 80F "all year around" in San Diego. It gets much chillier during the winter months. And it also depends on the part of the city, as the difference between different parts can be well above 10 F.
Second, 80F in relatively dry San Diego climate is pleasant and not hot.
8)
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No, I'm not moving anywhere.
And yes, the idea is to keep moving the app forward...
...and oh look, there are actual changes and features in this 1.7.0 build.
Sorry it took so long, but we had to take care of a few things before resuming forum builds.
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Hm, mobisystems and flurry are blocked in AdAway - very "good" sign. :(
Maybe a nice deal for you Kostya, but I fear not for us. Thanks for your work over the years, it was the best mail client.
A pro customer says goodby...
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Hm, mobisystems and flurry are blocked in AdAway - very "good" sign. :(
Maybe a nice deal for you Kostya, but I fear not for us. Thanks for your work over the years, it was the best mail client.
A pro customer says goodby...
What is AdWay?
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ad blocking software?
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ad 1) about Flurry Analytics:
https://developer.yahoo.com/analytics/features.html
I liked AquaMail because there was no tracking.
But there are more "dangerous" tracker in the world than Flurry.
At this moment K-9 is the only Mail-App one left without tracking.
But I will stay with AquaMail.
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Hm, mobisystems and flurry are blocked in AdAway - very "good" sign. :(
Maybe a nice deal for you Kostya, but I fear not for us. Thanks for your work over the years, it was the best mail client.
A pro customer says goodby...
1. With respect to flurry, what exactly is blocked in AdAway?
There are at least 3 flurry products:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flurry_(company)
- Flurry Analytics
- Flurry for Advertisers (formerly AppCircle)
- Flurry for Publishers (formerly AppSpot)
As far as I understand Flurry Analytics that was mentioned with respect to the newest version of Aquamail is not serving any ads, but rather collecting usage information.
2. I am not that much familiar with Flurry Analytics and mobisystems to make the ultimate judgement about their "tracking habits". From the description on the Wikipedia page (which sounds like it was written by a person from Flurry itself), - it is not malicious, and it is not more intrusive than Google is. Google collects much more information about Android users, and I don't see herds of people dumping their Android phones. (Google knows what, when, and where you are doing, and with whom, as well as their contact information.)
3. So far, one could stay with the desired version without upgrading. I hope that will remain the case. (I have a "sweet spot" intermediate -dev version that I've been enjoying due to the 1-letter-based search of addresses.)
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I can't say I'm happy for MYSELF for this, since I've not had the best experience with MobiSystems over the years. And, as others have said, these kinds of arrangements usually lead to less user privacy, some weird development decisions, and all around lack of joy.
I'm happy for YOU, though, Kostya, since you'll have more money and more time.
I noticed that, in Google Play, my current version of AquaMail isn't showing up as installed when compared to the version put forth by MobiSystems. Are they not in any way linked?
- Tim
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Re: Flurry
Yes there is (obviously) Flurry in the latest version.
To my knowledge (and this is getting "corporate"), it's not a violation of the privacy policy, or else the policy would be updated.
Re: I noticed that, in Google Play, my current version of AquaMail isn't showing up as installed when compared to the version put forth by MobiSystems. Are they not in any way linked?
It' same exact app, just under a new "publisher" ("owner", "developer account" whatever you call it).
There have not been any updates *by* MobiSystems in Google Play, yet.
So I can't really know, sounds like some sort of Play glitch you've ran into :)
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Hi everyone,
This is Nadia from MobiSystems and I will be helping Kostya with the support :)
A little delayed ... welcome Nadia! :)
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No, I'm not moving anywhere.
And yes, the idea is to keep moving the app forward...
...and oh look, there are actual changes and features in this 1.7.0 build.
Sorry it took so long, but we had to take care of a few things before resuming forum builds.
Just loaded up 1.7.0-45. Nice suite of enhancements; same quality as always. Congrats, Kostya on a successful partnership with MobiSystems. Health, happiness and financial stability (which encompasses just about everything else) are primary. Always.
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Thank you @Davey126, appreciated!
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Congratulations :)
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While I'm obviously pleased for Kostya, I'm very much saddened that it's MobiSystems that have got involved. I've uninstalled and disabled a number of their apps on my Android devices because of the ads, bloat, and lack of clarity about the 'fantastic new features' that are pay-per-use (one example being file conversions in File Commander).
I hope I'm wrong Kostya, but I think going with MobiSystems is a bad deal for your users.
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Re: Flurry
Yes there is (obviously) Flurry in the latest version.
To my knowledge (and this is getting "corporate"), it's not a violation of the privacy policy, or else the policy would be updated.
Re: I noticed that, in Google Play, my current version of AquaMail isn't showing up as installed when compared to the version put forth by MobiSystems. Are they not in any way linked?
It' same exact app, just under a new "publisher" ("owner", "developer account" whatever you call it).
There have not been any updates *by* MobiSystems in Google Play, yet.
So I can't really know, sounds like some sort of Play glitch you've ran into :)
The introduction of Flurry is so "obvious" that is has been conveniently forgotten in the changelog...
On the other hand, as I think that the way I use an app I bought is none of the maker's business, I'd like to know how can I disable or opt-out the analytics/telemetry. If this is not possible, I'll sadly stop suggesting Aquamail as a privacy respecting mail client and I'll be forced to stop using it myself.
Yeah, I already know that you and Mobisystem probably couldn't care less...
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Re: I needed to have separate (different) settings for sync settings for different accounts (sync on WiFi only vs sync on WiFi+mobile connection).
It's an internal change, this is why it was not included in the changelog, which is for user visible changes not implementation details.
I guess Flurry is a user visible change to you personally, well, nothing wrong with that.
Just want to point out that Flurry very explicitly forbids apps developers from collecting any personally identifiable information.
Attempting to do this would be a violation of Flurry's "developer agreement", if any app (not just Aqua Mail) was doing it...
Re: Yeah, I already know that you and Mobisystem probably couldn't care less...
... but since you already wrote that "I'll be forced to stop using it myself", you probably couldn't care less...
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It's an internal change, this is why it was not included in the changelog, which is for user visible changes not implementation details.
I guess Flurry is a user visible change to you personally, well, nothing wrong with that.
While I'm not a developer, I respectfully disagree, as I don't consider the addition of analytics stuff a minor point. It should have been mentioned in the changelog.
Just want to point out that Flurry very explicitly forbids apps developers from collecting any personally identifiable information.
Attempting to do this would be a violation of Flurry's "developer agreement", if any app (not just Aqua Mail) was doing it...
The point is not "personally identifiable infos" or not. The point is that an user should be given the possibility to opt-out, if he/she feels like. Hope you (or whoever is going to manage the app from now on) consider the idea. Crossing a lot of small "not personally identifiable infos" one could build a very detailed profile of an user (and his/her identity), as we know. Anyway, save for a couple of open-source projects, I prefer to avoid all kind of telemetry/analytics because I feel this is the right thing to do **for me**. Do I wear a tin-foil hat? Maybe, but this is off-topic now.
Re: Yeah, I already know that you and Mobisystem probably couldn't care less...
... but since you already wrote that "I'll be forced to stop using it myself", you probably couldn't care less...
C'mon... I've been a great supporter of your app, buying it and suggesting it to friends in real life and on various forum on the internet. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have written here (I actually rushed here just after I noticed the new developer). I'd really like to continue using AM but I just don't like the feeling of stuff going on behind my back (my tin-foil hat is tight). So, again, would you please consider the idea of making the analytics stuff opt-out?
Thanks.
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thumbs ☝
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Please relax. Your privacy is not your at starting point - when you switching your phone ON. And yes, opting collecting data feature is a must, but I really doubt if it gonna change something.
Another thought, if it so matter, broadcast reciever can be opted out to server X with some root tools.
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So Mobisystems is pushing an Aquamail icon to users' home screen via OfficeSuite?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/5jf91y/psa_if_aquamail_shows_up_on_your_home_screen_it/
If true, that's a real bad sign of things to come.
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what about rolling back to the previous version and sticking there forever?
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Please relax. Your privacy is not your at starting point - when you switching your phone ON.
I disagree but, again, this is OT now.
And yes, opting collecting data feature is a must, but I really doubt if it gonna change something.
Another thought, if it so matter, broadcast reciever can be opted out to server X with some root tools.
Sure, maybe it can be done. But Don't you think it's better to have a built-in option (It shouldn't take so long to add a simple switch in the "privacy" section)? It would also confirm the good-will of the developer(s).
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what about rolling back to the previous version and sticking there forever?
This is a non-solution. Like you, I'd like to receive security and feature updates but I'm simply not willing to send unknown stuff around the world. Is it so difficult to understand? It's a simple (working) on/off switch I'm asking for, nothing else.
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yes, I know, and for me you're right,
last week I installed an (irrelevant) app,
which had 2 options in the settings:
1) send anonymous data
2) show ads
you could uncheck only one of these (i.e. unchecking the 1st would check the 2nd and vice versa),
but this was because I downloaded the free version,
downloading the paid version you could remove both checks (obviously..),
so aquamail should respect its paid users at least and
give them the option to opt out of sending out bs!!!
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This is super disappointing.
Love AM but hate Mobisystems. They screw everything they touch with ads, pop-ups and nag screens -- and that's just the paid/pro versions!
Clearly one of AM's strength was its transparent and honest privacy policy and respect/security of user data - that seems dashed now unfortunately.
Kostya -- I'm grateful for your work on AM and understand why you'd want to partner with someone, but please consider how to restore the biggest feature that brought many AM users onboard in the first place: user privacy/security being paramount.
Regards.
J
Sent from my SM-G935F
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Please relax. Your privacy is not your at starting point - when you switching your phone ON. And yes, opting collecting data feature is a must, but I really doubt if it gonna change something.
Another thought, if it so matter, broadcast reciever can be opted out to server X with some root tools.
what tools?
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/5jf91y/psa_if_aquamail_shows_up_on_your_home_screen_it
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Please relax. Your privacy is not your at starting point - when you switching your phone ON. And yes, opting collecting data feature is a must, but I really doubt if it gonna change something.
Another thought, if it so matter, broadcast reciever can be opted out to server X with some root tools.
what tools?
Like my android tools
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=cn.wq.myandroidtools
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the market promo?
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No, just a link to have the idea, what I'm talking about.
You get it from other sources if you wish.
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Some French and German speaking users are not happy with AquaMail, pushed on their screens by Mobisystems advertisement (see Google Play comments).
Would you please check in your own languages?
Same in Spain:
https://www.elandroidelibre.com/2016/12/que-es-aquamail-movil-spam-virus.html (https://www.elandroidelibre.com/2016/12/que-es-aquamail-movil-spam-virus.html)
Definitely, not a good sign.
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Oh, oh. That's a shame.
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I understand the reasons behind this move and hope you as a developer will benefit from this.
I tried outthe officesuite and now my only worry is that the "lean and mean" AM will become bloatware like their office App which also bugs the use with advertising :-(
Your support until now is very much appreciated - well done for creating such a great App!
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Whoa whoa whoa.. I'm a bit new to AquaMail and I saw a review on GooglePlay saying that the app is tracking all kinds of stuff since it was acquired by MobiSystems.. Just exactly WHAT stuff are being tracked? I want to know because on Reddit, I saw a post saying that TrueApp and such sister apps track your browsing and download log information.. which I don't particularly care for at all (Mainly because I think, 'Why should an emailing service track my browsing information and download logs on my device?').
This even discouraged me from buying pro, as I don't really care about tracking too much (since I know that Google, Microsoft and several other big companies I use already got my info and I DON'T put my real information for such reasons! :/), but there's a certain line I have when it comes to it.
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aquamail's name is getting destroyed now :(
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Just exactly WHAT stuff are being tracked? I want to know because on Reddit, I saw a post saying that TrueApp and such sister apps track your browsing and download log information..
I don't really know what the tracking stuff that's gone into AquaMail is but, as far as I can tell from the earlier comments, it's more about usage rather than personal details etc.
TypeApp and Blue Mail, on the other hand, work in a different way to how Aqua Mail currently works. Where Aqua Mail connects directly to your mail service's servers and pulls the mail in directly from there so, if you have 4 or 5 account say, Aqua Mail will connect to each one in turn and so on. TypeApp and Blue Mail, as I understand it, communicate only with the TypeApp/Blue Mail servers and pass the information they need to pull your email from the 'real' servers. Your email therefore passes through, and may be stored by TypeApp/Blue Mail's service which can pull out all sorts of information and use it for their own ends, including selling whatever they want to 3rd parties.
This is why TypeApp/Blue Mail can afford to provide what appears to be a very good email app whereas Kostya's been trying to work within a business model where customers pay once and expect support, updates, and the right to use the app on whatever Android devices they feel like without having to pay any extra. This is a dreadful business model from a developer's point of view, and is actually pretty crap for customers as well because almost all apps that are in that position have, or are going to, come to the point that Kostya's reached where they either sell out to a company with a more sustainable business model, or just abandon the app altogether.
This is something I briefly discussed with Kostya a little while ago when I decided that Aqua Mail was valuable enough to me that I wanted to make an additional contribution over and above the initial license fee. In the end, I just bought a 2nd license but, obviously, that was a small contribution and not enough to prevent Kostya from having to look at alternative options.
Unfortunately, in this case, Kostya's chosen to go with MobiSystems who're actually pretty nasty to customers; offering seriously crippled 'free' versions of their apps and nagging people to pay for stuff they often don't need, and forcing app icons onto people's home screens, and accepting payment for 'premium' versions of their apps that STILL don't provide all the functionality in the app without extra payment!
This causes me a real dilemma; while Kostya's still involved with Aqua Mail I feel like it's risking his livelihood to suggest you use something else but, perhaps (hopefully), the deal's good enough for him not to care too much. Personally though, I'm seriously looking at returning to K-9 Mail. There was probably a good reason I moved away from K-9 when I did a few years ago; I think it might have been to do with issues related to dealing with POP3 mail (there was some funny with the way the database was handled in relation to marking messages as read or something), but I don't use POP3 any more so I don't need to worry about that any more. K-9 uses one of the other business models; it's free because it's open-source so, first of all, you can be absolutely sure (if you have the knowledge) of what is and isn't being sent to 3rd parties and, as a software developer myself it means that, if there's something I don't like about the app, I can put some effort into making it better.
Hope this helps
John
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aquamail's name is getting destroyed now :(
Unfortunately it really is!
AM is an awesome app, but unless something happens very soon (change of this policy, comment from Kostya, etc.) the app will be discarded (and derided) by many (especially the savvy ones who got AM due to it being so privacy conscious).
Reddit (amongst other places) is destroying the good name that Kostya built for AM ... and frankly (unfortunately) there's nothing to argue in response. They're right and IMHO the privacy policy change is not appropriate given what AM stood for.
Sent from my SM-G935F
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Just exactly WHAT stuff are being tracked? I want to know because on Reddit, I saw a post saying that TrueApp and such sister apps track your browsing and download log information..
I don't really know what the tracking stuff that's gone into AquaMail is but, as far as I can tell from the earlier comments, it's more about usage rather than personal details etc.
TypeApp and Blue Mail, on the other hand, work in a different way to how Aqua Mail currently works. Where Aqua Mail connects directly to your mail service's servers and pulls the mail in directly from there so, if you have 4 or 5 account say, Aqua Mail will connect to each one in turn and so on. TypeApp and Blue Mail, as I understand it, communicate only with the TypeApp/Blue Mail servers and pass the information they need to pull your email from the 'real' servers. Your email therefore passes through, and may be stored by TypeApp/Blue Mail's service which can pull out all sorts of information and use it for their own ends, including selling whatever they want to 3rd parties.
This is why TypeApp/Blue Mail can afford to provide what appears to be a very good email app whereas Kostya's been trying to work within a business model where customers pay once and expect support, updates, and the right to use the app on whatever Android devices they feel like without having to pay any extra. This is a dreadful business model from a developer's point of view, and is actually pretty crap for customers as well because almost all apps that are in that position have, or are going to, come to the point that Kostya's reached where they either sell out to a company with a more sustainable business model, or just abandon the app altogether.
This is something I briefly discussed with Kostya a little while ago when I decided that Aqua Mail was valuable enough to me that I wanted to make an additional contribution over and above the initial license fee. In the end, I just bought a 2nd license but, obviously, that was a small contribution and not enough to prevent Kostya from having to look at alternative options.
Unfortunately, in this case, Kostya's chosen to go with MobiSystems who're actually pretty nasty to customers; offering seriously crippled 'free' versions of their apps and nagging people to pay for stuff they often don't need, and forcing app icons onto people's home screens, and accepting payment for 'premium' versions of their apps that STILL don't provide all the functionality in the app without extra payment!
This causes me a real dilemma; while Kostya's still involved with Aqua Mail I feel like it's risking his livelihood to suggest you use something else but, perhaps (hopefully), the deal's good enough for him not to care too much. Personally though, I'm seriously looking at returning to K-9 Mail. There was probably a good reason I moved away from K-9 when I did a few years ago; I think it might have been to do with issues related to dealing with POP3 mail (there was some funny with the way the database was handled in relation to marking messages as read or something), but I don't use POP3 any more so I don't need to worry about that any more. K-9 uses one of the other business models; it's free because it's open-source so, first of all, you can be absolutely sure (if you have the knowledge) of what is and isn't being sent to 3rd parties and, as a software developer myself it means that, if there's something I don't like about the app, I can put some effort into making it better.
Hope this helps
John
Thanks for clearing things up! I got really nervous since I get really suspicious when apps and programs alike ask for permissions that I find for certain ones to be quite unnecessary. But since MobiSystems is pretty bossy, should I just not risk it and move to K-9? I haven't tried K-9 but I noticed that it hasn't been updated in awhile (which normally indicates to that the app might be abandoned)
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Thanks for clearing things up! I got really nervous since I get really suspicious when apps and programs alike ask for permissions that I find for certain ones to be quite unnecessary. But since MobiSystems is pretty bossy, should I just not risk it and move to K-9? I haven't tried K-9 but I noticed that it hasn't been updated in awhile (which normally indicates to that the app might be abandoned)
No problem. To be honest, I noticed that there hasn't been a public release for 7 months or something, but there have been a lot of changes committed in that time on Github, so I'm not sure why they haven't bothered doing a release for a while. I'm starting to pay more attention to it again so will try to find out. Obviously, as it's open-source and run by volunteers, there's no timescales defined for releases.
John
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Thanks for clearing things up! I got really nervous since I get really suspicious when apps and programs alike ask for permissions that I find for certain ones to be quite unnecessary. But since MobiSystems is pretty bossy, should I just not risk it and move to K-9? I haven't tried K-9 but I noticed that it hasn't been updated in awhile (which normally indicates to that the app might be abandoned)
No problem. To be honest, I noticed that there hasn't been a public release for 7 months or something, but there have been a lot of changes committed in that time on Github, so I'm not sure why they haven't bothered doing a release for a while. I'm starting to pay more attention to it again so will try to find out. Obviously, as it's open-source and run by volunteers, there's no timescales defined for releases.
John
Yeah, with open-sources they do normally take longer to release (I know this because I am actually creating an app.. and its going a bit rough so far but it could be worst). Also, what's the difference between the two apps? Not sure whether if I want to switch again (third time switching from Gmail to Inbox, then back to GMail, then finally to AquaMail). I mainly switched the very first time because GMail didn't offer mark all as read anymore, then Inbox came, tried that and it too didn't offer it
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At the time, one of the main reasons I chose Aquamail was because it was actually very similar to K-9, both in general layout and philosophy. They've diverged a little, I think, and Kostya has updated the look of Aquamail where K9 now looks more dated. There is a discussion on UI rework on the K9 in one of the forums, so hopefully that's something that will be improved shortly. Other than that, I'm not sure really, but I have a feeling K9 might not directly support Exchange. I've installed it again and got it setup alongside Aquamail to compare the two.
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At the time, one of the main reasons I chose Aquamail was because it was actually very similar to K-9, both in general layout and philosophy. They've diverged a little, I think, and Kostya has updated the look of Aquamail where K9 now looks more dated. There is a discussion on UI rework on the K9 in one of the forums, so hopefully that's something that will be improved shortly. Other than that, I'm not sure really, but I have a feeling K9 might not directly support Exchange. I've installed it again and got it setup alongside Aquamail to compare the two.
Ah, I went to AquaMail because it looked more towards the Material style, but with all of the negative things I'm hearing about MobiSystems and how they're pushing AquaMail on people's phones, it's making me worry and question rather I should buy pro on AquaMail or just deal with the datedness of K-9. Unfortunate right?.. and I did happen to grow attached to AquaMail a little bit, but I have no tolerance to companies that force people into paying.
I'm conflicted between buying pro for AquaMail (since its on sale for $2.45) and see what happens to the app or just deal with K-9.
Now.. the main question is: Should I even waste my money and purchase pro membership with AquaMail or just go to K-9 and adapt to it?
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thanks for this posts, I think I'm gonna try it too and ditch (at last) typemail as my second /backup email app
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Now.. the main question is: Should I even waste my money and purchase pro membership with AquaMail or just go to K-9 and adapt to it?
I just don't know. Kostya is remaining involved with Aquamail so I would hope he could temper MobiSystems' idiocy, at least in the short term, but I don't know how things will pan out. I don't like MobiSystems; I've paid for their apps in the past then, even with the 'premium' version (of File Commander) got hit with the 'that feature requires an extra per-use payment" when I tried something. I'm also not impressed with some of the choices they've made, like introducing a "recycle bin" that can't be switched off and, obviously their advertising and bloat beggars belief. That's not a business model I'm happy to support.
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I just don't know. Kostya is remaining involved with Aquamail so I would hope he could temper MobiSystems' idiocy, at least in the short term, but I don't know how things will pan out. I don't like MobiSystems; I've paid for their apps in the past then, even with the 'premium' version (of File Commander) got hit with the 'that feature requires an extra per-use payment" when I tried something. I'm also not impressed with some of the choices they've made, like introducing a "recycle bin" that can't be switched off and, obviously their advertising and bloat beggars belief. That's not a business model I'm happy to support.
Hm.. Well, might as well go and see what happens :/ Hopefully things don't end up going to hell.
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At the time, one of the main reasons I chose Aquamail was because it was actually very similar to K-9, both in general layout and philosophy. They've diverged a little, I think, and Kostya has updated the look of Aquamail where K9 now looks more dated. There is a discussion on UI rework on the K9 in one of the forums, so hopefully that's something that will be improved shortly. Other than that, I'm not sure really, but I have a feeling K9 might not directly support Exchange. I've installed it again and got it setup alongside Aquamail to compare the two.
it doesn't fit me, because I want exchange mail too
https://k9mail.github.io/documentation/accounts/incoming_webdav.html
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Now.. the main question is: Should I even waste my money and purchase pro membership with AquaMail or just go to K-9 and adapt to it?
I just don't know. Kostya is remaining involved with Aquamail so I would hope he could temper MobiSystems' idiocy, at least in the short term, but I don't know how things will pan out. I don't like MobiSystems; I've paid for their apps in the past then, even with the 'premium' version (of File Commander) got hit with the 'that feature requires an extra per-use payment" when I tried something. I'm also not impressed with some of the choices they've made, like introducing a "recycle bin" that can't be switched off and, obviously their advertising and bloat beggars belief. That's not a business model I'm happy to support.
Feels a bit too late.
Kostya is currently still onboard... and as time goes on, I expect he'll have less control, not more. And yet, AM already has Mobisystems rubbish embedded (i.e. the privacy policy change).
I wish I was wrong, but I don't see this getting better (for AM fans). 😕
Sent from my SM-G935F
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OH MY GOD !! @Kostya Best of luck dude ! I just come back to Android after 1 yesr and this new give tears in my eyes...Aqua mail is the number 1 email app in Play store. I am not sure what mobi system will do with this awesome app. But i admire your work and dedication. Respect !
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Just one request.
Please, please, please, please, please, please, don't turn AquaMail into bloatware!
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I am a very happy user of Office Suite, File Commander, and the Oxofrd Eng Dict, so I can only expect good things from my favorite email app, aquamail, joining that groups of very well written apps.
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Did anyone else notice the changes in the latest version are marked as "Bug fixes and improvements"?
As a software developer myself I'm always suspicious of those words, especially in this situation where Kostya never failed to provide at least a brief description of the particular improvements he made.
The whole statement smacks of "we've added stuff we don't want to tell you about".
>:(
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The changes in 1.7.2 really were bug fixes and (small) improvements.
This was a "hotfix" release and so they wanted to reuse already existing translations for this short phrase, and not spend more time getting the translations done.
The two main changes were: 1) we went back to the "olden but golden" German translation (and I'm sure the German users noticed immediately, and others don't care) and 2) provided a setting to turn off analytics.
There were a few bug fixes too, in particular, printing to Google Cloud Print is now possible without installing the Google Cloud Print app.
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Thanks for that clarification Kostya but, to be honest, an option to turn off analytics is something a lot of people would welcome. I'm not convinced that's something you would've hidden under "and improvements" in the past.
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This change (analytics opt-out) was first posted on the forum, and tested and "approved" by someone who had the right tools for it (some sort of "privacy checking app") prior to the release.
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Congratulations Kostya!
I'm happy that you were able to get help with this excellent software. Doing all by yourself is almost impossible with the reach this software now has.
I do hope that you still make decisions about features and design for a while longer. I'm not as active as I was long ago but I still come here once in a while to discuss a change or an issue.
I would also like to congratulate you on the new design. Quite nice and polished!
The Play store listing needs to be updated with the new icon design and graphics. The Pro Key also needs an update. Forum and main page design as well. A lot of work... :P
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Thank you @jcasares.
The new design is one of the things that MobiSystems brought to the table.
Re: update icons, screenshots, etc.
Yes, this will be done soon. Fortunately there are now people who takes care of releasing Play updates, and of making updated screenshots.
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Thanks, I do like new skin better. Nice job done.
Another thing, still eagerly waiting separate folder for attachments. I know, we were talking about it some time ago, but still, I want to be a fast one, as I'm with blackberry ;)
Regards, happy pro user.
Išsiųsta iš mano Redmi Note 3
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Thanks, I do like new skin better. Nice job done.
Another thing, still eagerly waiting separate folder for attachments. I know, we were talking about it some time ago, but still, I want to be a fast one, as I'm with blackberry ;)
Regards, happy pro user.
Išsiųsta iš mano Redmi Note 3
You will find an appropriate option in the Account-specific options:
-> long press on account name -> Special settings -> Data storage -> move the slider to the right -> tap on "Folder for saving attachments" -> choose a specific folder to save attachments
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I'm one of the earliest fans of Kostya and Aquamail and I'm glad he made some money off it. But sadly, it is already going down hill, especially with the latest version.
Too bad..... 😧
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In what way? I believe the latest version is on a random 50% distribution basis; I haven't got it yet.
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But sadly, it is already going down hill, especially with the latest version.
The new version with new design is a big step forward. There have been always people who complained about the old-fashioned UI.
And there are not too much changes (of course there could be some more improvememts - there are threads about it in this forum).
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Thanks, I do like new skin better. Nice job done.
Another thing, still eagerly waiting separate folder for attachments. I know, we were talking about it some time ago, but still, I want to be a fast one, as I'm with blackberry ;)
Regards, happy pro user.
Išsiųsta iš mano Redmi Note 3
You will find an appropriate option in the Account-specific options:
-> long press on account name -> Special settings -> Data storage -> move the slider to the right -> tap on "Folder for saving attachments" -> choose a specific folder to save attachments
Thanks, I'm aware of this feature, using it, as it is the only way to sort out every excels I'm receiving.
In general I was talking about separate tab, as blackberry 10 got it in the hub, as separate tab, easy accessible in same app.
Išsiųsta iš mano Redmi Note 3
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But sadly, it is already going down hill, especially with the latest version.
The new version with new design is a big step forward. There have been always people who complained about the old-fashioned UI.
And there are not too much changes (of course there could be some more improvememts - there are threads about it in this forum).
Many of the threads prefer the older version. They are the reason that Aquamail got to be this successful. One of its hallmarks was its customizability and Kostya response to users. Where can I get versions 1.6 without their becoming updated by Google play.
New isn't always better.
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But sadly, it is already going down hill, especially with the latest version.
The new version with new design is a big step forward. There have been always people who complained about the old-fashioned UI.
And there are not too much changes (of course there could be some more improvememts - there are threads about it in this forum).
I like to keep an open mind. Perhaps someone can list the advantages and disadvantages of the new ui? That way we can make a more informed opinion.
One item I miss is the ability to customize what tools /icons are on the smart folder message list toolbar. Is that still possible? How?
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Thank you.
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Qu'est ce que c'est le "FAB" ?
(Je vois que vous êtes du Liban. J'avais beaucoup d'amis du Liban. C'est vraiment dommage).
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Qu'est ce que c'est le "FAB" ?
(Je vois que vous êtes du Liban. J'avais beaucoup d'amis du Liban. C'est vraiment dommage).
"FAB" is the "Floating Action Button" which appears on the lower right corner.
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Thank you both!
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I'm one of the earliest fans of Kostya and Aquamail and I'm glad he made some money off it. But sadly, it is already going down hill, especially with the latest version.
Too bad..... 😧
I take back what I said. By installing tab, etc. as recommended by Paris Geek I am now using the latest version and happy with it. Thank you PG.
Wish it was possible to stop the embedded Google analytics and similar. 😟
(keeping my older version backups for now)
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Mobisystems is reputable. I hope the deal was good for Kostya. As for us, it's my experience that lager companies tend to mess up excellent apps acquired from brilliant individuals. I hope I will be proven wrong. Until further notice, I will keep the latest version signed by Kostya.
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Mobisystems is reputable.
Mobisystems have a reputation of making you pay for a product, then charging you extra to make it functional!
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I'm one of the earliest fans of Kostya and Aquamail and I'm glad he made some money off it. But sadly, it is already going down hill, especially with the latest version.
Too bad..... 😧
I take back what I said. By installing tab, etc. as recommended by Paris Geek I am now using the latest version and happy with it. Thank you PG.
Wish it was possible to stop the embedded Google analytics and similar. 😟
(keeping my older version backups for now)
There was an update in the meantime. You can disable "(Flurry) Analytics" in the settings now:
-> Menu -> Settings -> Send usage statistics -> uncheck 'Send usage statistics'
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Congratulations Kostya...I am a long-time user of Aqua Mail and I congratulate you for developing and maintaining a very impressive email app. I hope you have been well rewarded for your work and care. It's always a little sad when a creator is separated - even a little - from their project but it's heartening to learn you will still be involved for a bit at least.
Thanks for Aqua Mail: it makes using a smartphone - especially for work - a much more pleasant and much easier task. And all the very best for your future. I look forward to other projects you may be involved in.
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Thank you @ianmann, very kind of you.
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Костя, спасибо за Вашу разработку. Я долго уже пользую приложение для личной почты и жене его тоже купил. С некоторых пор подключил также рабочий почтовый аккаунт. Поэтому важный вопрос— есть ли у нового владельца намерение чрезмерно "засекьюрить" приложение, типа шифровать кусок памяти тел, выделенной под почту, или дополнительно паролить? Я раньше пытался для рабочей почты пробовать другие приложения, типа Microsoft outlook и Nine, но все они норовили запаролить либо весь телефон, либо просмотр сообщений. Я был очень рад, что Ваше приложение никаких заморочек не имеет. Поэтому хотелось бы знать какие на это планы, чтобы ненароком не обновить в случае чего. Спасибо.
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Capybsrus, this is international forum, so English please. I do understand and Kostya does - but there are a lot of others, who doesn't. Please respect and them.
Regards.
Išsiųsta iš mano Redmi Note 3
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@capybsrus
Пока что таких планов нет, и отсутствие обязательного шифрования, а тем более полномочий по стиранию данных на устройстве -- пока что воспринимается пользователями как достоинство а не недостаток.
We don't currently have plans for mandatory encryption or the "erase device data" feature, and so far - I believe our users see this as a advantage not a drawback.
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Thank you for promt response and hard work! Yes, exactly, it is an advantage for me to have no additional security interference on my devices. Glad to hear there are no such plans for the near future. Spasibo.
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@kostya
Any plans for an Aqua Mail web app? Любые планы для веб-приложения
That would be a killer enhancement to what has become one of if not the best email app available!
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Not that I'm aware of - what would that be, a web site that aggregates multiple accounts?
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Why having another cloud option?
No, web page is not needed at all.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
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I also wouldn't personally want a cloud/web-based interface, but I see a point why some people might want that. You can access all your accounts from a single point using any internet-connected computer in the world.
I don't like accessing my e-mail from the devices that are not mine: it's too easy to sniff passwords and what not. But many people don't care, and routinely access their e-mail from the lobby of a hotel/motel, public libraries, etc.
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Not that I'm aware of - what would that be, a web site that aggregates multiple accounts?
Exactly! A webpage that aggregates multiple accounts. I love working in the app when mobile, but at the office or home it would be great to have the same option on desktop. Not another desktop program (Outlook, Thunderbird, Mailbird) but a web app so that if I have multiple accounts (Gmail, Office 365, Yahoo) I can go to one page. I had this with IQTELL, but sadly they shut down on August 1. There is also Alto and Newton, but Aqua Mail is so much better!
For those curious about why this is needed i.e. @cukierkas just ask the 500+ former IQTELL users who are scrambling for a solution. An aggregated web app is not only an incredible productivity tool, but also a complete rarity. I already believe Aqua Mail is the best mobile email app available. If there was a web version, I wouldn't have to use anything else.
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Exactly! A webpage that aggregates multiple accounts.
Does this mean, that all mails have to be stored on a server of AquaMail? This would be needed for serving the webpage.
Then, I totally disagree with the suggestion. Main feature of AquaMail is, that the software is working locally on a device. Mails are tranfered between mail server and device, no storing on a server of AquaMail.
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No, emails would not be stored on Aqua Mail servers. This would work exactly as it does on mobile with Oauth, IMAP or the like.
ALTO is a good example. The same interface is available on mobile and in a web browser. It is lame that I can check 5 Gmail accounts, two Office 365 accounts and one live.com account without any issue using Aqua Mail on my phone, but if I want to check those same eight email accounts on a desktop, I have to open 8 different tabs and check 8 different inboxes. For aggregated inbox there are only a couple of choices in browser (ALTO) or IQTELL (which goes away on Tuesday) or desktop programs such as Mailbird, Thunderbird or Outlook. None of these are as good an experience as Aqua Mail.
I am just hoping for the same experience on desktop/laptop as I enjoy on mobile.
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No, emails would not be stored on Aqua Mail servers. This would work exactly as it does on mobile with Oauth, IMAP or the like.
If it would work as IMAP e.g, it would be just a local app with direct communication between local User app and mail server.
If you want a web service instead, there must be a server, and mails at least must pass this server.
ALTO is a good example. The same interface is available on mobile and in a web browser.
This is what ALTO writes in FAQ:
"AOL may use information about your use of certain communication tools (for example, AOL e-mail or AOL Instant Messenger); however, AOL does not read your private online communications when you use these communication tools without your consent.
With your consent, AOL will automatically scan data at rest in select products and services, such as Alto Mail, in order to optimize features and functionality. This may include, for example, organization of messages, reminders, suggestions or special offers.
With your consent, AOL will automatically scan data at rest in Alto Mail, in order to optimize features and functionality. We scan both the header and content of messages accessed through Alto, and some of this data may include personal data. We do this to give you the full benefit of the Alto service - including, to organise your messages, and to create 'cards' with reminders, suggestions or special offers.
The scanning is an automated process, and the data is not shared with any third parties.
AOL may use information about your use of certain communication tools (for example, AOL e-mail or AOL Instant Messenger); however, AOL does not read your private online communications when you use these communication tools without your consent.
(..)
With your consent, AOL will automatically scan data at rest in select products and services, such as Alto Mail, in order to optimize features and functionality. This may include, for example, organization of messages, reminders, suggestions or special offers."
I don't know wether it's possible to deny scanning of "both header and content of messages" in ALTO. But all messages will pass servers of ALTO.
Of course this is like Google does in Gmail, but - for me - Gmail is my mail provider, and it's not primarily a mail client service in general.
And I love AquaMail for the direct communication between app and mail servers.
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No, emails would not be stored on Aqua Mail servers. This would work exactly as it does on mobile with Oauth, IMAP or the like.
ALTO is a good example. The same interface is available on mobile and in a web browser.
If you are accessing messages on a website, they are downloaded to the server running that website (from the e-mail server, IMAP or EWS). (As @nica has pointed out.) The same way as phone-based app downloads messages to the phone.
It is lame that I can check 5 Gmail accounts, two Office 365 accounts and one live.com account without any issue using Aqua Mail on my phone, but if I want to check those same eight email accounts on a desktop, I have to open 8 different tabs and check 8 different inboxes. For aggregated inbox there are only a couple of choices in browser (ALTO) or IQTELL (which goes away on Tuesday) or desktop programs such as Mailbird, Thunderbird or Outlook. None of these are as good an experience as Aqua Mail.
Different people - different preferences/needs.
I wouldn't want to mix up different e-mail accounts. (And I am not using Smart Folder in Aquamail.
The daily amount of messages in some of my accounts is so big that mixing them up with others would result in some important messages missed.
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The great thing about multiple options is that only those who need/want to use them have to.
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Multiple options or different basic concepts? ;)
The great thing is that there are already many different services and apps, and we can choose.
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MobiSystems (https://www.mobisystems.com/) is proud to announce that Aqua Mail is joining its family of productivity and business apps.
Please see the full announcement (https://www.mobisystems.com/news/aqua-mail-becomes-a-part-of-the-mobisystems-family-159/) for details.
I (Kostya Vasilyev) will remain involved in the project.
Didn't take long for them to completely ruin your app. Good job on selling out at least! Hope the $$$$ was worth ruining your reputation forever.
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MobiSystems (https://www.mobisystems.com/) is proud to announce that Aqua Mail is joining its family of productivity and business apps.
Please see the full announcement (https://www.mobisystems.com/news/aqua-mail-becomes-a-part-of-the-mobisystems-family-159/) for details.
I (Kostya Vasilyev) will remain involved in the project.
Didn't take long for them to completely ruin your app. Good job on selling out at least! Hope the $$$$ was worth ruining your reputation forever.
I'm pretty sure that the current destroying development was not the intention at Kostya's decision (in Nov. 2016).
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MobiSystems (https://www.mobisystems.com/) is proud to announce that Aqua Mail is joining its family of productivity and business apps.
Please see the full announcement (https://www.mobisystems.com/news/aqua-mail-becomes-a-part-of-the-mobisystems-family-159/) for details.
I (Kostya Vasilyev) will remain involved in the project.
Didn't take long for them to completely ruin your app. Good job on selling out at least! Hope the $$$$ was worth ruining your reputation forever.
I'm pretty sure that the current destroying development was not the intention at Kostya's decision.
Am I missing something? Google Play is showing the last update as 23 August 2017 which seems to be ok; is there a later one I should avoid allowing Google Play to auto-update? What's the problem?
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I'm pretty sure that the current destroying development was not the intention at Kostya's decision.
That's what I'd like to believe... (The MobiSystem management outpowered him.) -- I always try to give a benefit of a doubt, as you may have noticed.
Sadly, it is very unlikely it happened without his knowledge. (Or, did it?)
I suspect his agreement clause wouldn't allow him to disclose this, even if he knew and was against it.
If that was the case, I wouldn't want to be in Kostya's shoes.
In any case, before making any judgement on his part, I'd rather wait until Kostya is back and we can hear from him.
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Am I missing something? Google Play is showing the last update as 23 August 2017 which seems to be ok; is there a later one I should avoid allowing Google Play to auto-update? What's the problem?
I am not sure in which free version it was included (and recently activated): I am using a paid version, where it hasn't been activated so far (but obviously present in the app). Given the number of responses, I suspect it was already in that Google Play version, August 23, 2017, but the ads were activated only in the past couple days.
What I know for sure is that prior to that, there was already a mechanism to turn on and off the half-price-sale notifications, probably using a similar if not the same mechanism as that for the ads.
Rather tangential thought: the ability of the app developer to enable and disable some functionality in an Android app (or even the entire app) remotely has always bothered me. But that's the monstrous app platform that Google has created without giving any significant concern about privacy and your personal control over your device. That where you need to make the choice if you trust or do not trust the developer and his/her/their app.
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Am I missing something? Google Play is showing the last update as 23 August 2017 which seems to be ok; is there a later one I should avoid allowing Google Play to auto-update? What's the problem?
I am not sure in which free version it was included (and recently activated): I am using a paid version, where it hasn't been activated so far (but obviously present in the app). Given the number of responses, I suspect it was already in that Google Play version, August 23, 2017, but the ads were activated only in the past couple days.
What I know for sure is that prior to that, there was already a mechanism to turn on and off the half-price-sale notifications, probably using a similar if not the same mechanism as that for the ads.
I see - thank you for that.
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I'm pretty sure that the current destroying development was not the intention at Kostya's decision (in Nov. 2016).
Just updating my previous post to clarify which decision (Kostya's) I meant...
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No more statements from MobiSystems?
No response by Kostya? (I can not imagine, that ads and feedback are a sudden surprise?
I would like to see, what we can expect.
I have the impression that users' concerns are not taken seriously by MobiSystems including Kostya:
- No announcement about changing the privacy policy to all users
- Showing ads in an annoying way (I understand the need of monetarization, btw)
- No response to those users who have always been involved in Aquamail and supported other users.
We don't know if things will get any worse in the future.
I personally recommended AquaMail to many others, and I am the one who now receives all complaints.
So I can not recommend AquaMail anymore like before (also in other forums), there are alternatives like MailDroid and K-9, and I will delete my forum account.
Plaese don't delete this post, thanks.
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...Didn't take long for them to completely ruin your app. Good job on selling out at least! Hope the $$$$ was worth ruining your reputation forever...
I bought the paid version within about an hour of trying it out, so the [presumably MobiSystems driven] decision to plaster the free version with adverts doesn't affect me [nor would have had I been using the free version, as I'm rooted and block ads at the hostfile level].
I've got to say though that [following the debates on here and reading the comments on Google Play--and MobiSystems nauseating copy/paste reply to them all], I'd not even have downloaded the app to try in the first place, if I'd come across it nowadays.
When are developers and site owners going to realise that people who hate adverts are never going to click on them in the first place and the more you force adverts in their faces or [in the case of an increasing number of websites] try and force users to turn off adblockers, the more determined those users become to NEVER click on one of your adverts. So nobody wins:
The developers don't get increased ad revenue as those users don't click the ads. And the users begin to dislike your app and distrust you and possibly consider moving elsewhere.
No one begrudges developers making a living by monetising their apps --especially an app so good as AquaMail. But I don't see what's wrong with using the method of adding extra features to the paid version, where people will pay to make something good even better. I think, when I tried the free version, it was limited to one or two email accounts and, after trying it and finding how good it was, I willingly upgraded to the paid version, so I could use it with my half dozen or so accounts.
Plastering your free version in ads and then asking people to pay to remove them is like a restaurant serving up a meal smeared with dogshit and then telling you you can pay a bit extra to have the same thing without the turd on top.
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Do the dev builds of 1.11 have the intrusive ads?
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Do the dev builds of 1.11 have the intrusive ads?
Is it really necessary to post the same thing three times, in three different threads? Good forum etiquette says no.