AquaMail Forum
English - Android => Development builds => Topic started by: Kostya Vasilyev on May 08, 2016, 01:52:24 am
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https://www.aqua-mail.com/download/AquaMail-market-1.6.2-dev5.5.apk
https://www.aqua-mail.com/download/AquaMail-market-1.6.2-dev5.6.apk
https://www.aqua-mail.com/download/AquaMail-market-1.6.2-dev5.7.apk
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+ Fixes in "sender + subject" conversation grouping, improved handling of sent messages
(although there are still some interesting and strange cases, so not sure if this new feature was worth it)
-dev5.6: let's try not applying this "sender + subject" logic to any messages "from" one of our own addresses.
-dev5.6: uploaded to Google Play, "beta", update blocked by Google
-dev5.7: fixed the app's description (Play support objected to the list of languages/translations), looks like it went through, the "update blocked" notice has disappeared.
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+ Исправления в цепочках по "отправителю + теме", более лучшая обработка отправленных
(хотя всё равно остаются интересные и странные сценарии, так что не уверен что эту новую функцию было нужно делать)
-dev5.6: а давайте попробуем не применять этот новый алгоритм к сообщениям "от" наших собственных адресов.
-dev5.6: выложена в Google Play, "beta", обновление заблокировано в Play.
-dev5.7: исправил описание приложения (поддержка Google имела претензии к списку языков/переводов), кажется эта версия "поехала", уведомление о блокировке исчезло.
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Conversation combining by sender+subject seems to be working as intended in Dev5.6. No weirdness detected. There may still be some edge cases but none appeared with my settings cocktail.
While probabky known and not new to this dev cycle, conversation combining with the archive folder option enabled causes sent messages to be shown twice when viewed in the sent folder as the copy in 'all mail' is also shown (and counted).
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While probabky known and not new to this dev cycle, conversation combining with the archive folder option enabled causes sent messages to be shown twice when viewed in the sent folder as the copy in 'all mail' is also shown (and counted).
That is a feature of Gmail: The label "All mail" becomes a special folder via IMAP that contains duplicates of messages in all other folders (including "Sent"). The solution to that is simple: do not sync/use "All mail" in Aquamail: you already have those messages in Inbox and other folders if you enabled server-side filtering.
https://goo.gl/3nqTgj
;)
PS. I really don't see why you'd need to use "All mail" in Aquamail.
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The solution to that is simple: do not sync/use "All mail" in Aquamail: you already have those messages in Inbox and other folders if you enabled server-side filtering.
I am familiar with server-side filtering and use it extensively. Invariably some items do not fit the filters and land in the inbox without secondary labels. There are many scenarios where a message can loose all labels, including "inbox", and only be represented in "All mail". Not to mention this is Gmail's unconfigurable location for archived mail.
PS. I really don't see why you'd need to use "All mail" in Aquamail.
In a perfect world with perfect labeling and a perfect mechanism to detect the actions of imperfect humans there would be no need for "All mail". Until that happens inclusion of "All mail" is not only desirable but essential to get a complete view of all items that fall within sync parameters.
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The solution to that is simple: do not sync/use "All mail" in Aquamail: you already have those messages in Inbox and other folders if you enabled server-side filtering.
I am familiar with server-side filtering and use it extensively. Invariably some items do not fit the filters and land in the inbox without secondary labels. There are many scenarios where a message can loose all labels, including "inbox", and only be represented in "All mail". Not to mention this is Gmail's unconfigurable location for archived mail.
Unless you intentionally delete or archive a message in your server-side filters, how could it happen that a message would "loose all labels, including "inbox" "?
"Archived" means something that you do not access it on everyday basis. You do that once in a while, and then you don't necessarily expect it to have all the same behavior. In fact, you can find it rotten... ;)
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Unless you intentionally delete or archive a message in your server-side filters, how could it happen that a message would "loose all labels, including "inbox" "?
"Archived" means something that you do not access it on everyday basis. You do that once in a while, and then you don't necessarily expect it to have all the same behavior. In fact, you can find it rotten... ;)
With all due respect I suspect you do not use Gmail clients regularly. There are numerous ways to eradicate labels assigned to messages including deleting the label itself. While this may seem silly it's surprisingly easy to do if you believe all items carry another label but in fact some do not. Other mail clients (yes - I am a traitor and use something other that Aqua on occasion when it offers an productivity advantage) can munge labels. I could go on but that's not the point.
You assume Gmail users will have comprehensive server-side filters designed to label every incoming item. While I have do have a number of filters that apply labels or take other actions, a significant portion of mail arrives unlabeled as it is either transient (read once and discard) or it needs further review to determine what label(s) to apply. Gmail's rich search function makes it viable to simply archive messages that I wish to retain for possible future reference but don't necessarily warrant a label.
I have no interest in over managing my mail through the use of copious filters that also need to be managed. I label (file) items when it makes sense to do so. 90-95% of the remaining items are deleted immediately or within a short time of arriving in the inbox. The remainder end up in "all mail" where I have no problem finding them when needed. This is the way Gmail was designed to work. It's an excellent model. A hybrid of traditional filing and searchable, unstructured data.
Aqua's search and folder alignment capabilities play well with Gmail for the most part. In some cases Aqua does it better (which is why I use it). There are a few things it doesn't handle well which I will continue to point out. As this community is primarily IMAP/POP centric I can understand the reluctance to embrace Gmail's conventions.
That said, the train is coming whether it be Gmail or or some other tool that is more elevated than the previous generation of folder centric mail systems which resemble the Dewey Decimal Classification system in a traditional library. No need to file it when I can simply search using a variety of criteria.
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Re: Unless you intentionally delete or archive a message in your server-side filters
I do. Filtering, set up on Gmail web site, for years, with "archive (skip inbox)" all of them.
But that's probably not the use case you're talking about...
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Re: Unless you intentionally delete or archive a message in your server-side filters
I do. Filtering, set up on Gmail web site, for years, with "archive (skip inbox)" all of them.
But that's probably not the use case you're talking about...
Bottom line: omitting All Mail in Aqua yields an incomplete view of Gmail's message repository (including recent/relevant conversations) unless one is absolutely certain every message carries a secondary label. Having acess to a subset of mail may be acceptable and even advantageous to some. It is not for me.
Aqua does a fine job limiting the size of the local database via various sync settings so that's not an issue. Performance remains excellent. Local database <35MB with a 30 day sync window. I have 25,000+ items in all mail that are instantly searchable if the item if interest is not contained in one of the 50+ active folders.
Items under sent mail are reliably duplicated when viewed in the sent folder in Aqua with the archive option enabled. It's an anoyance but I can deal with it. All I was saying.
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Re: unless one is absolutely certain every message carries a secondary label
But why wouldn't they?
Each and every incoming message is supposed to be labeled as Inbox (unless filtered into some other label/folder), the only exception I'm aware of is spam.
But that's not unusual, any mail service works this way (if it has spam filtering that is, which most if not all do).
I agree that Aqua's lack of support for Gmail labels is a shortcoming and can be annoying and downright a show-stopper in some usage patterns -- only responding to your specific point.
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Re: unless one is absolutely certain every message carries a secondary label
But why wouldn't they?
Each and every incoming message is supposed to be labeled as Inbox (unless filtered into some other label/folder), the only exception I'm aware of is spam.
Archive a message from the inbox and it looses the inbox label. If no other label has been assigned (by filter or user) it is only representatived in "all mail". Very easy to do given Gmail UX which favors archiving.
But you already know that so we are coming at this from different vantage points.
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Re: Archive a message from the inbox and it looses the inbox label.
Ah, yes, that it does. User action. I thought you meant an "all by itself" scenario, sorry.
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PS. I really don't see why you'd need to use "All mail" in Aquamail.
I'm actually debating the merits of eliminating 'sent' from Aqua sync:
- it is a subset of All Mail which is required for holistic mail management
- Aqua enables the inadvertent removal of hidden 'sent' label which is difficult to replace
- duplication of outgoing messages in 'sent' coversation view (w/archive option set)
The only disadvantage at present is one can not formulate an search in Aqua for mail from an explicit sender (me!) as the search function includes all addressing fields that appear in headers. Have to use a different mail client for that when needed.
Not this strategy is Gmail centric and may not play well with other providers.
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Archive a message from the inbox and it looses the inbox label. If no other label has been assigned (by filter or user) it is only representatived in "all mail". Very easy to do given Gmail UX which favors archiving.
But you already know that so we are coming at this from different vantage points.
As Kostya pointed out you are responding to something completely different from my point(s).
I wrote:
Unless you intentionally delete or archive a message in your server-side filters, how could it happen that a message would "loose all labels, including "inbox" "?
I do use Gmail, and more than one Gmail account, but quite possibly less than you do. Obviously, our workflows are different. But it looks like you are considering making some changes to your established procedures (you've asked about abandoning "Sent"). In that case, - you might want to consider and read the view that I have on these folders.
I consider "All Mail" label as an "archive". (Which is actually in line with Gmail's procedures.)
I've already written what "archive" means to me:
"Archived" means something that you do not access on everyday basis. You do that once in a while, and then you don't necessarily expect it to have all the same behavior.
So, in that view, - "All Mail" is essentially where deleted messages "live after death" within Gmail (for me). You can occasionally go there if you need to retrieve from long time ago. (I've never had to do that so far.) So, "All Mail" is not synced in IMAP clients.
All other messages live either in their respective folders (labels), where they get sorted either automatically or moved by hand, or in Inbox, if they do not belong to any major topic. Sent messages live in either "Sent" or in the specific folder where they got moved to.
In this case, you'd have no duplications, no duplications. ;)
(And from what I can tell, this procedure would not create any additional problems with your multiple labels vs. Aquamail.)
From what I can tell, not actively using "All Mail" folder/label is a very frequent model of Gmail, at least by people who use Gmail via IMAP client (e.g. Thunderbird). And I don't go to "All Mail" even the web-interface, or in Gmail app that I am using for one of my Gmail accounts.
BTW, @Kostya: it looks like Thunderbird is aware of multiple labels in Gmail, and doesn't store message duplicates. At least that's what I read in some online pages at mozilla.org.
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Re: it looks like Thunderbird is aware of multiple labels in Gmail, and doesn't store message duplicates
Not sure what they *store* (in terms of the back-end), but:
- It does show "All Mail" (and "Important", another pseudo-label-not-really-a-folder)
- I just ran it and the state is inconsistent:
Look at the unread counts, I don't have any unread messages in All Mail or Important in web mail.
This is a test account with only a few dozen messages, and I also pressed Get Messages a few times.
Update: I was wrong on this one, sorry, "All Mail" had some unread messages when I searched for "is: unread".
And then Thunderbird has no conversations / threading (I mean built-in, believe there is a plugin), so I don't know how it handles other interesting Gmail specific cases.
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Re: Not sure what they *store* (in terms of the back-end)
Looks like "nothing Gmail specific":
- I marked a message in Inbox as Unread
- The unread count on "All Mail" only updated after a second or two, from the server, thanks to IMAP IDLE -- without it, the app didn't know it was the same message (so it would have updated the unread count in "All Mail" immediately, no delay)
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And then Thunderbird has no conversations / threading (I mean built-in, believe there is a plugin), so I don't know how it handles other interesting Gmail specific cases.
Threads have been in the base version for many years.
View-> Sort by -> Threaded
(I am talking about Desktop (Windows) version... not sure if there is a mobile one.)
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Re: and more about the back-end:
$ ls -lh \[Gmail\].sbd
-rw-------. 1 kman kman 41M May 10 00:55 All Mail
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 348K May 10 01:04 All Mail.msf
-rw-------. 1 kman kman 0 Feb 18 20:43 Drafts
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 2.2K Apr 25 01:02 Drafts.msf
-rw-------. 1 kman kman 32M May 8 17:11 Important
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 224K May 10 01:03 Important.msf
-rw-------. 1 kman kman 11M Mar 7 21:19 Sent Mail
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 51K Apr 25 01:02 Sent Mail.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.3K Jun 24 2015 Spam.msf
-rw-------. 1 kman kman 0 Feb 18 20:43 Starred
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.8K Apr 25 01:02 Starred.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.3K Jun 24 2015 Trash.msf
$ls -lh
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.3K Jun 24 2015 Archives.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.2K Jun 24 2015 Drafts.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.6K Jun 24 2015 [Gmail].msf
drwx------. 2 kman kman 4.0K Feb 18 20:43 [Gmail].sbd
-rw-------. 1 kman kman 1.6M May 10 00:55 INBOX
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 67K May 10 01:04 INBOX.msf
-rw-r--r--. 1 kman kman 25 Jun 24 2015 msgFilterRules.dat
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.2K Jun 24 2015 Sent.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.3K Jun 24 2015 Templates.msf
-rw-------. 1 kman kman 14K Jun 25 2015 testlabel
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 3.2K Apr 25 01:02 testlabel.msf
-rw-rw-r--. 1 kman kman 1.8K May 10 00:57 Trash.msf
My INBOX really does have only a few dozen messages.
More messages in All Mail and a lot of those are also Important. The sizes of database files (for [Gmail]/All Mail and [Gmail]/Important) are pretty close.
So yes, it does *store* duplicates it looks like.
I guess the only thing this tells us is -- support for Gmail labels has to exist as a "very special" (VS? VSOP?) feature in a mail app.
The way Gmail maps its "labels" to IMAP is maybe "the best it can be", but without the mail app having Gmail specific code, there are all kinds of "strange" things.
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Threads have been in the base version for many years.
View-> Sort by -> Threaded
D-OH! I must have been thinking of something else, thanks!
But I don't think it can show sent + received in same view (no "access folders"), and so no duplicates.
Sorry for the digression.
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Here is what I was referring to:
Note that a message can have multiple labels (for instance, "Personal", "Travel", "All Mail" and "Starred"). In this case, a single copy of this message will be downloaded, but it will be displayed in all the corresponding Thunderbird folders.
Source: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/thunderbird-and-gmail#w_understanding-gmail-labels-and-thunderbird-folders
Sorry, I have no idea what happens on the backend in Thunderbird.
PS.
I agree with:
... without the mail app having Gmail specific code, there are all kinds of "strange" things.
On the same Thunderbird page, there is a hint that there is some Gmail-specific code that handles Gmail accounts. And you already have Gmail- (and now Hotmail-) specific code for OAUTH2...
Or, maybe you meant Gmail-specific code in relation to the connection (as opposed to IMAP)?
PS.
I guess the only thing this tells us is -- support for Gmail labels has to exist as a "very special" (VS? VSOP?) feature in a mail app.
XO-XO-XO!
;D
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Re: Here is what I was referring to
The sizes of the database files are pretty indicative that it *stores* copies (per-folder).
Maybe it *downloads* such messages once.
Also the test with marking a message as unread tells me that it's not able to apply user-initiated flags changes to "the real Gmail message of which there is but one, no matter how many labels".
But then again, Thunderbird is only an example of an app that's not aware of Gmail labels to the extent where it would "feel like real Gmail".
Re: And you already have Gmail- (and now Hotmail-) specific code for OAUTH2
OAUTH2 is authentication (login), completely unrelated to Gmail labels.
Re: maybe you meant Gmail-specific code in relation to the connection
In the context of this discussion, about Gmail labels, I meant "special code that is aware of Gmail labels".
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@StR:
re: As Kostya pointed out you are responding to something completely different from my point(s).
re: Unless you intentionally delete or archive a message in your server-side filters, how could it happen that a message would "loose all labels, including "inbox" "?
Actually, Kostya asked a specific question which I responded to and and ultimately we reached a common understanding on the particular scenario that I was describing (human action).
re: "Archived" means something that you do not access on everyday basis. You do that once in a while, and then you don't necessarily expect it to have all the same behavior.
That is an opinion and one that is likely shared by some and disputed by others. I have been using Gmail before most knew it existed (because it was free and I'm cheap) and actively participated in forums during its early development. Google wanted users to retain everything and didn't even offer a delete function in early builds. Archiving was encouraged as an inbox management mechanism.
re: All other messages live either in their respective folders (labels), where they get sorted either automatically or moved by hand, or in Inbox, if they do not belong to any major topic. Sent messages live in either "Sent" or in the specific folder where they got moved to.
I addressed this as well. 90-95% of my mail is neatly filed away in 'folders'. Hundreds of messages are not, either by choice, oversight or omission. There is no need to hunt down these messages as they can be instantly found (and often relabeled) with a search. As you may or may not know individual messages within a conversation can be unlabeled and do not stand out unless 'missing' from a folder in a non-gmail client. Yet another reason why visibility to All Mail is important.
re: From what I can tell, not actively using "All Mail" folder/label is a very frequent model of Gmail, at least by people who use Gmail via IMAP client (e.g. Thunderbird).
Yes, because unless the client offers sync intelligence the All Mail folder can take up a significant amount of local storage.
re: I don't go to "All Mail" even the web-interface, or in Gmail app that I am using for one of my Gmail accounts.
I'll refer back to a previous response: In a perfect world with perfect labeling and a perfect mechanism to detect the actions of imperfect humans there would be no need for "All mail". I don't live in that world.
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I am less appreciative of subjective schooling suggesting that poor habits or a change in behavior is the real answer. We all can learn something from each other and I appreciate constructive dialog ...
Golden words!
The dialog could be more constructive and you would have fewer reasons to be upset if you would consider suggestions from others as such (i.e. suggestions), rather then "schooling".
I thought I was very explicit in saying that what I wrote are my views, and I am not forcing them on you, only sharing them with you, but maybe it wasn't clear enough:
Obviously, our workflows are different. But it looks like you are considering making some changes to your established procedures (you've asked about abandoning "Sent"). In that case, - you might want to consider and read the view that I have on these folders.
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There is no single right way of setting an e-mail workflow (except Kostya's; Right, Kostya? ;) ).
Yours has problems with the app. You can keep talking about those same problems, every time proposing changes to Aquamail, and it might eventually have an effect: "Dripping water hollows out stone, not through force but through persistence." (Publius Ovidius Naso aka Ovid). ... or might not. And that's fine. I've never said a word against that. (And I might benefit from some of those changes as well.)
But when you seemingly looked into possible changes in your workflow, I offered you my suggestion(s). If it is not for you (for whatever reason), - that's fine. But there is no need to keep arguing that everything I wrote is wrong and on top of that ranting about that.
Well, I am willing to write it all off, blaming it on the inclement weather around you, a bad day that you had, or even on my [hand]writing not being perfectly clear (even though I could understand it well even before I've written it! 8) ).
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re: "Dripping water hollows out stone, not through force but through persistence."
Well - if I look in the mirror that seems a pretty accurate representation. Well read, @StR. I would not want to engage you in a chess match! 8)
Yes, it has been a bad day (for many reasons) and I have invested too heavily in these forums the past few weeks pushing for the last 2% in a tool that satisfies my needs (and presumably those of a much larger community) 98% of the time. So it is probably time to step away before I dig any more holes. Not backing away from the principal arguments mind you but the presentation could have been better.
Sorry, gents.
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It seems that grouping of subject "ES [1] EventSentry::12105 by Email Critical Events" with the same sender is not working.
Cheers
Zduke
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Re: ES [1] EventSentry::12105 by Email Critical Events
Is the "ES [1]" here a reply prefix (in some non-English language)? Similar to "Re", "Fwd"?
If so -- this reply prefix is pretty non-standard. The app removes prefixes that look like:
"Re:", "Fwd:", "Re[2]:", "Fwd[31]:" and so on, any 2-3 character prefix.
But a semicolon (":") is required, and there is not supposed to be a space before the opening square bracket. This is pretty standard, I believe.
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Re: ES [1] EventSentry::12105 by Email Critical Events
Is the "ES [1]" here a reply prefix (in some non-English language)? Similar to "Re", "Fwd"?
If so -- this reply prefix is pretty non-standard. The app removes prefixes that look like:
"Re:", "Fwd:", "Re[2]:", "Fwd[31]:" and so on, any 2-3 character prefix.
But a semicolon (":") is required, and there is not supposed to be a space before the opening square bracket. This is pretty standard, I believe.
No, its not a prefix. Its just a subject generated by Eventsenty. Eventsentry ships me some interesting Windows logs and
I am not sure how it compose subject and why it is using that format.
Ive noticed that Win10 builtin mail client correctly groups that subject while Aquamail not.
Cheers
Zduke
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It seems that grouping of subject "ES [1] EventSentry::12105 by Email Critical Events" with the same sender is not working.
Let me ask you, just in case: In the messages that you expect to be grouped, - are the numbers exactly the same? I.e., all the messages have "[1]", and "12105" ?
I am asking, because based on your explanation of what these messages are, I'd naively expect that those numbers would be changing...
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Re: No, its not a prefix. Its just a subject generated by Eventsenty.
Then we have different subjects and such messages will not be grouped.
Re: Win10 builtin mail client correctly groups that subject
I think the "correct" here may very well be debatable. As I understand, those messages are not replies to each other?
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Re: No, its not a prefix. Its just a subject generated by Eventsenty.
Then we have different subjects and such messages will not be grouped.
Re: Win10 builtin mail client correctly groups that subject
I think the "correct" here may very well be debatable. As I understand, those messages are not replies to each other?
Nope, those are not replies.
I understand that Aquamail is trying to capture some predefined patterns and group messages accordingly, but if I there is an option to group messages with the same subject and sender, and I have messages in my inbox that satisfy that criteria, I would expect them to be grouped even if they have some square brackets in subject line :)
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Re: I have messages in my inbox that satisfy that criteria
Do they satisfy the criteria?
Are the numbers exactly the same, and all the rest, are the subjects exactly the same?
What StR asked above (indirectly)?
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Re: I have messages in my inbox that satisfy that criteria
Do they satisfy the criteria?
Are the numbers exactly the same, and all the rest, are the subjects exactly the same?
What StR asked above (indirectly)?
Sure, subjects are exactly the same and as I said thats why win10 mail client groups messages with this subject.
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Re: Sure, subjects are exactly the same
And they come from same exact address?
Did you enable app settings -> conversations -> combine on sender + subject?
If not please do and then tap "reindex conversations" two items down.
PS - just checked how the app cleans up (removes any reply prefixes) on this exact subject, the example you gave above:
"ES [1] EventSentry::12105 by Email Critical Events"
It's left untouched, as expected, so the square brackets aren't meaningful here.
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100% sure - same sender and subject.
settings -> conversations -> combine on sender + subject enabled.
I've done reindexing several times - while disabling and enabling conversation options.
I can send screenshots if you want...
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Re: 100% sure - same sender and subject
Is the sender's email address also an account in the app?
If so -- your own messages are excluded from "group by subject + sender" logic, or else you'd get strange results with sent messages.
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Re: 100% sure - same sender and subject
Is the sender's email address also an account in the app?
If so -- your own messages are excluded from "group by subject + sender" logic, or else you'd get strange results with sent messages.
Thats it :)
Sender's address is also an account in the app.
As soon as I changed sender's email address in Eventsentry to something different, grouping works as expected.
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Re: As soon as I changed sender's email address in Eventsentry to something different, grouping works as expected.
Good :)
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Re: I would expect them to be grouped even if they have some square brackets in subject line
I would not unless there is some hidden identifier used to associate similar messages or there are well understood conventions where such characters might exist. Understand your comments and recognize some mail clients successfully navigate the grouping of similar, but not identical subject lines. Also seen them misfire when a bracket, prefix (eg "Fwd:"), letter case or some other attribute doesn't match the template. That leads to more requests to accommodate an endless list of special cases. Vicious cycle.
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Re: an endless list of special cases. Vicious cycle
Yes. And I'd rather avoid this...